Curse

Jaigoda · May 20, 2009, 05:05 AM // 05:05

Looking at other threads, a lot of people debate between using two hybrid monks in an average group, and using a prot monk with a heal monk. So, I wanted to see the general opinions of people, and see if we can all become a bit more educated on the subject. So here’s how I see the two:

The Hybrid Argument:
Usually, when running two hybrid monks (both have heals and prots), each monk brings a powerful healing elite (most always WoH), and then bring a few prots, trying not to overlap (one with SB, the other with PS, etc.). This means that each monk is not completely reliant upon the other, and if one is incapacitated, the other can help pick up the flack. The only real disadvantages here is of overlapping heals (a Patient and a WoH is generally redundant), and the fact that you have to spread over at least 3 attributes. Of course, if you’re only running one monk, the only reason not to bring a hybrid is if you have crazy defense (imbagon...) and no need for prots.

This type of backline is generally more popular in serious player groups, and is argued for quite often. It usually is a tad bit more stable than separating the prot and the heal, simply because even if one dies the other can keep up with the pressure until the other is brought back up. My problem with it is that they either somewhat gimp their healing (too much in prot) or their prot (usually the case, since most have 8-9 in prot). This means that the prot and/or the heal aren’t going to be as strong as they could be with more specialized monks.

The PnH (ProtnHeal) Argument:
Unlike the hybrids, each monk in this case is generally considered to be one full healing monk, and a full protection monk. The main advantage is that there is no overlap of skills, so even if they cast on the same target, energy isn’t completely wasted (unlike two prots or two heals). Also, you keep the most effective heals and prots, since you can easily spec 14 or so into each one. The problem is that when one goes down, you completely lose your heals or prots. While it carries generally more powerful and efficient spells, it’s more vulnerable than two hybrids.

Now, everything so far most people know. But here’s the thing: even with full ProtnHeal, you can still bring a small heal on the prot and a prot or two on the heal. 8+1 prot for the healing monk will not take away from his heals, and allows you to bring Guardian, Prot Spirit, etc. Plus, if you have to, the prot can always bring ZB (prots have great elite options though, such as LS, PnH, RC, Boon Sig, Empathic Removal, etc.) so they both can still have some in both worlds. To me, though, 14 prot is pretty hard to give up, and two hybrids just seem a bit redundant anyway. And a good example of this is a traditional GvG backline; it’s usually a WoH and a prot, but both can function decently without each other (even though they can’t really be considered hybrids in my eyes).

So, what’s your opinion on this? Am I the only person who prefers a specialized backline? And if you don't agree with me, try not to flame too hard, okeys?

haggus71 · May 20, 2009, 05:23 AM // 05:23

It depends on who you have. If you have a couple of guildies who know monking, I'd go with specialization. It's PvE. It's not like they don't know what to prepare for, and you can trust them. Any other time, two hybrids are nice because, between the two of them, you should get SOME healing/prot done. With heroes, no question. They are always hybrids with low maintenance builds and WoH.

Dogz_The_Black · May 20, 2009, 05:34 AM // 05:34

I prefer 2 hybrids as you can chain aegis, soa or sol, and if you have 2 monks that have been monking together for some time, there will be a lot less overlap. But specialized is nice for HB+HP...

Keekles · May 20, 2009, 06:16 AM // 06:16

dual hybrids in most situations.

at worst, hybrid + a prot. Pure heal is silly, you don't need that many red-bar-go ups.

mr monk rupsie · May 20, 2009, 06:20 AM // 06:20

Well i like Hybrids. As you say, if 1 goes down the chance is much higher that the party will go down as wel. It also makes the monking part a lot more interesting. Ok you have 2 woh monks but not both monks should take patient spirit (the other could take a prot spell (shield of absorption?)).
Also hybrids can chain aegis or 1 of them could bring in Extuinguish (Dasha Vestibule anyone?) This mean they wont have to heal and prot all the time.

Overall: Hybrids are more adaptable and if they get powerblocked ^^ they are not completly useless. Also they can help each other more out in case 1 is on low energy.

Sookie · May 20, 2009, 06:57 AM // 06:57

Okay...I guess that I will be the whipping girl.

I like a healing monk along with a protection monk. I would rather have the two specializing in a certain area for maximum healing/protecting. I keep them on "avoid combat" and make sure that they have health at least 550 HP. They are usually not attacked at that level if front line and mid line are doing their jobs.

Two hybrid monks would be okay in a pinch when things aren't too crucial, I suppose. But it is my humble opinion that a hybrid monk is a "jack of all trades and a master of none".

When adventuring, questing, etc...I'd rather have 2 masters than 2 jacks holding my back line.

okay...I'm a big girl and can take the flames.

Cebe · May 20, 2009, 07:57 AM // 07:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

and the fact that you have to spread over at least 3 attributes.

You don't have to do this with a hybrid. You could have 12 Healing and 12 Protection is you really wanted to, given Hybrids don't seem to make much use of divine favour skills.

The thing is, reducing Protection to 11 (+1), and bumping Divine Favour up to 6 (+1) doesn't really impact on Protection Prayers a great deal due to the breakpoints of Aegis and Shield of Absorption, but allows a heal of 22 whenever a skill is cast on an ally thanks to Divine Favour.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enolena Sedai

I like a healing monk along with a protection monk. I would rather have the two specializing in a certain area for maximum healing/protecting.

I know a lot of people who like a hero with Healing + Divine, and one with Protection + Divine. There often seems no logical reason for this given they rarely use any Divine Favour skills, and when they do, another skill could often to the job better.

Consider they Hybrid though, and what I spoke of earlier. The important Protection Prayers spells such as Aegis, Life Sheath and Shield of Absorption have breakpoints at 12, 12 and 10 respectively, Protective Spirit, Mend Condition, Shielding Hands, and all the other useful Protection Prayers skills are simply progressive skills with no clear breakpoints. So long as you hit these breakpoints, you're good. I know SoA and Aegis last another second at 14 Protection, but in the grand scheme of things, this isn't going to help you a great deal. If you're heading for partywipe, that extra second on SoA is rarely going to save your team.

So we've established the breakpoint argument. So long as you have at least 12 in Protection (made up of 11 + 1), you can have a minimum of 14 in Healing (12 + 1 + 1) and the leftovers in Divine Favour (6 + 1) for that small bonus heal you can have a Monk that makes the most of the useful skills and attribute lines available to him.

A further thing to consider is copying skills. If you have a "Healing Monk", and a "Protection Monk", assuming you don't use a secondary on another character, you can only have multiple copies of fantastic skills such as Aegis. With 2 Hybrid Monks, you could potentially have Aegis active two thirds of the time.

To Conclude, I'm not ruling out a "Healing Monk" and a "Protection Monk" for all circumstances, but I do find myself very rarely using them. I don't want a bar full of Protection Prayers skills, because I actually only find a few Protection Prayers skills to be of a great deal of use. Likewise, a couple of big, quick recharging heals is more than enough. Two copies of Word of Healing isn't a problem, it just means I have 2 power heals, rather than one power heal, and one Protection elite because "it's a 'Protection' Monk". If you consider the "Healing Monk", who's been stacked with 5-6 Heals, what's he actually doing for you? He probably has at least 3 Healing spells recharged at any one time, sitting there taking up skills slots.

Jeydra · May 20, 2009, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cebe

A further thing to consider is copying skills. If you have a "Healing Monk", and a "Protection Monk", assuming you don't use a secondary on another character, you can only have multiple copies of fantastic skills such as Aegis. With 2 Hybrid Monks, you could potentially have Aegis active two thirds of the time.

That's really narrow minded, don't you think? Consider for example these two builds:

14 Healing, 11 Protection, 9 Divine

WoH / Signet of Rejuv / Protective Spirit / Guardian / Dismiss Condition / Aegis / Cure Hex / GoLE

And

14 Protection 9 Healing 11 Divine

Restore Condition / Shield of Absorption / Guardian / Gift of Health / Aegis / GoLE / Reversal of Fortune / Spirit Bond

You have one Protection Monk and one Healing Monk, yet you also have two copies of Aegis, a 7s Shield of Absorption, Spirit Bond @ 14 spec, heals on the Protection Monk, etc. You've got almost all the advantages of having two hybrids while gaining a variety of bonuses to boot. I suppose you could call both these Monks 'hybrids' but they really are not. The Healing Monk is the WoH hybrid you alluded to, but the Protection Monk is completely different.

I'm for running Prot + Heal as opposed to two Hybrids, for reasons given above. There's one notable exception though: when your party has an ER Elementalist, I'm for running pure healing HB Monks for the other spot.

Sookie · May 20, 2009, 09:03 AM // 09:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cebe

I know a lot of people who like a hero with Healing + Divine, and one with Protection + Divine. There often seems no logical reason for this given they rarely use any Divine Favour skills, and when they do, another skill could often to the job better.

You are in error on this one. There is a VERY logical reason for Healing + Divine AND Protection + Divine and it has nothing to do with whether or not you are using Divine Favor skills.

It is a Prime attribute and gives the monk an extra 3.2 points of healing for each level of the Divine Favor attribute.

Divine Favor for Monks is like the Soul Reaping skill for Necromancers, Fast-Casting for Mesmers, Strength for Warriors, Energy Storage for Elementalists, etc.

So yes, I use a Healing + Divine monk and a Protection + Divine monk.

Cebe · May 20, 2009, 09:25 AM // 09:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enolena Sedai

You are in error on this one. There is a VERY logical reason for Healing + Divine AND Protection + Divine and it has nothing to do with whether or not you are using Divine Favor skills.

It is a Prime attribute and gives the monk an extra 3.2 points of healing for each level of the Divine Favor attribute.

I thought you might try to argue that.

13 Divine Favour gives you a heal of 42 every time you cast a Monk Spell on an Ally. 7 Divine Favour gives you a heal of 22. I always saw Divine Favour as an attribute line a little like Fast Casting...it gets less useful the more points you put in it unless you plan on using DF skills. I'd personally rather sacrifice the 20HP heal (from jumping from 7 DF to 13DF) for the ability to use a third attribute line to give me a much greater benefit.

Just because it's a primary attribute does not mean you must max it out. As an Elementalist, you don't need to max out Energy Storage to get the best possible build, likewise with Mesmers, there is seldom a need to max out Fast Casting. I'm sure many will disagree with me, but such are my observations.

---------

Jeydra: I concede you managed to create two builds which copy Aegis, one primarily based around Healing Prayers, and one primarily based around Protection Prayers. I personally don't like them for various reasons...but that's probably just down to personal preference and play style - I'm sure they work fine. However, I have tried such ideas myself in the past but they seem much more "niche". I would only bump up Protection Prayers more to run an elite if the area I was fighting in really benefited more from that, but even then, with your example of Restore Condition, is this not something another profession could do better (Eg. Foul Feast, Song of Purification) if extreme condition removal is required?

You say your Monk builds "aren't really hybrids"...but they really are. Yes, the protection monk isn't a "standard WoH hybrid", but it's still a hybrid in that it contains Protection, Healing and Divine Favour attributes, and attempts to get the best from both worlds, and that is still at the heart of the debate.

glacialphoenix · May 20, 2009, 09:29 AM // 09:29

I favour hybrids, myself, but not both running the same bar.

Quote:

My problem with it is that they either somewhat gimp their healing (too much in prot) or their prot (usually the case, since most have 8-9 in prot).

I run 13 healing 11 divine 11 prot; max health is still above 600. I do agree that specialisation works, too, but I find two hybrids a more stable option, and when I pack a hero like Tahlky I tend to manual her anyway - running both as hybrid allows me more flexibility in protting/healing someone.

caeleth · May 20, 2009, 09:55 AM // 09:55

Two hybrids - one a bit more prot specced (ie. prot elite) and one more heal specced (ie. WoH/heal elite).

Prot one has 1-2 red bar up skills (ie. patient/gift and dismiss), rest prots.

Heal has 1-3 prot skills (guardian, aegis, ps), rest red bar up.

Hex/cond removal depending a bit on area and preference.

Tyla · May 20, 2009, 09:56 AM // 09:56

Whatever gives more damage overall, in the end it doesn't matter unless you are dying. Still dying? Bring more shutdown or prot. Maybe a red-bars-up.

Captain Bulldozer · May 20, 2009, 01:38 PM // 13:38

I favor henchie monks generally, as I tend to run Necros/Rit healers (either Sabway or Discordway). That way you don't need to waste a valuable spot on Monk heroes. When I DO run a monk hero, I pretty much never take more than 1 (unless it were a RoJ team of course), and in that case its likely to be a hybrid with a favoring towards protection prayers, because skills in that line are generally overpowered when used even halfway correctly. I don't find splitting the attributes to be much of an issue, and I completely agree with Cebe that having lower divine favor is not usually a big deal.

Jeydra · May 20, 2009, 01:40 PM // 13:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cebe

Jeydra: I concede you managed to create two builds which copy Aegis, one primarily based around Healing Prayers, and one primarily based around Protection Prayers. I personally don't like them for various reasons...but that's probably just down to personal preference and play style - I'm sure they work fine. However, I have tried such ideas myself in the past but they seem much more "niche". I would only bump up Protection Prayers more to run an elite if the area I was fighting in really benefited more from that, but even then, with your example of Restore Condition, is this not something another profession could do better (Eg. Foul Feast, Song of Purification) if extreme condition removal is required?

You say your Monk builds "aren't really hybrids"...but they really are. Yes, the protection monk isn't a "standard WoH hybrid", but it's still a hybrid in that it contains Protection, Healing and Divine Favour attributes, and attempts to get the best from both worlds, and that is still at the heart of the debate.

RC is there as a bar push that doubles as condition removal. Personally I think while you can run Foul Feast or Song of Purification, neither are as good as RC, and besides the other Prot elites aren't that spectacular (SoD? Life Sheath? Aura of Faith?). Almost every area will involve conditions of some kind too, making RC great, although I'm sure you can switch to Boon Signet, Boon Prot or similar. Furthermore, if you do factor in Foul Feast on midliners one would also be free to factor in Aegis on midliners ...

As for the Monks being hybrid ... according to the original post, they fall into the Prot and Heal department. The original post didn't refer to 12 Healing 12 Divine + 12 Prot 12 Divine vs. two hybrids; it referred to Prot + Heal hybrids vs. 2x Heal hybrids. That is at the core of the debate, and here I favour Prot + Heal.

JDRyder · May 20, 2009, 07:29 PM // 19:29

I like to mix it up.

Here are some team builds I like

Dual Hybrids

WoH, Pspirt, SoA, SoR, PS, Dismiss, CA, Aegis

LoD, RoF, SoA, Guardian, SB, Dismiss, Holy Veil, Aegis

PnH

WoH, Pspirt, SoR, PS, Healing seed, CA, Aegis, GoLE

LS, GoH, Guardian, SB, SoA, Holy Veil, Aegis, GoLE

Dual Prot

AoF, SoD, Guardian, PS, SoA, Revealed hex Ether signet, Divine boon

LS, SoD, Guardian, SB, SoA, Revealed hex, Ether signet, Divine boon

Dual Healing

Healer's Conenant, Vigorous Spirit, Dkiss, SoR, Pspirt, Divine Intervention, Spotless mind, Spotless soul

LoD, Dkiss, SoR, Infuse, Healing Touch, WoC, CA, Healing Seed

Dual Divine >.>

Blessed Light, RoF, Aegis, PS, Divine Healing, Heaven's Delight, Dismiss, GoLE

UA, SoD, RoF, Aegis, SB, Dismiss, Deny Hexes, GoLE

Dual Smite

Defender's Zeal, RoD, Judge's Intervention, Divine healing, SC, SH, Smiter's boon, Divine Boon

Boon Signet, RoD, Judge's Intervention, Divine Healing, SC, SH, Smiter's boon, Divine Boon

Really they all are good and its not really about whats best imo, its PVE anything works. I've even solo healed in a pug with that Boon Signet Smite build before. In PvP I'd use a "real" build, but in PvE I just use what I feel like using.

EDIT: If your asking why no HB on the dual healers, I just wanted to do something different :P

Improvavel · May 20, 2009, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

And a good example of this is a traditional GvG backline; it’s usually a WoH and a prot, but both can function decently without each other (even though they can’t really be considered hybrids in my eyes).

This is going to end in a semantics war.

Hybrid is someone that can both cast protection skills while healing (and don't read heal as healing prayers and protection as protection prayers). This is, I believe, the most common conception of hybrid.

The GvG backline can both heal and protect - they are hybrids.

Something to note is that a monk going divine favor and healing prayers alone will be hard pressed to protect, but a monk going protection + divine favor can heal.

So in my view you use hybrids. Last night I was using a protection + divine favor (+assassin escape mechanisms) in AB. Still I was a hybrid since my elite was boon signet.

So it seems this thread is about defining how much heal can a prot monk bring before being called a hybrid or how much prot can a heal monk bring before being called a hybrid.

I think there is little point debating that.

What most people use is 2 WoH mirror hybrids (some of the prots can be changed) for PvE, 2 "specialized" hybrids for GvG, 1 red bar up (with no real protection) + 1 protection (can be hybrid too) or 2 red bars up for pve.

I think we (and most people in this thread) will agree that the only bad option is running a monk that cant prot or a monk that has very little red bar up power.

WoH beats most of the time RC in pve because not every mob has conditions and so the RC would lose all its healing power (lets say that DF is a bonus but not a red bar up in emergencies).

zwei2stein · May 20, 2009, 07:59 PM // 19:59

OP, you missed two things:

1) Skill slot cost.

Effective healer build can do with as little as 2 skills, with three bordering on luxury. Filling any more with heals is simply waste.

2) Attribute point curve & total party yield

Skills growth is linear with attribute investment, but investment grows exponentially.

One prot monk with 14 investment chaining aegis is inferior to two monks at 10 investment chaining.

One monk healing with 14 points WoH is outdone by two monks with 12 points one.

Not to mention that best prots work well with insanely low investments.

Improvavel · May 20, 2009, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

OP, you missed two things:

1) Skill slot cost.

Effective healer build can do with as little as 2 skills, with three bordering on luxury. Filling any more with heals is simply waste.

2) Attribute point curve & total party yield

Skills growth is linear with attribute investment, but investment grows exponentially.

One prot monk with 14 investment chaining aegis is inferior to two monks at 10 investment chaining.

One monk healing with 14 points WoH is outdone by two monks with 12 points one.

Not to mention that best prots work well with insanely low investments.

The interesting thing is he didn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

Now, everything so far most people know. But here’s the thing: even with full ProtnHeal, you can still bring a small heal on the prot and a prot or two on the heal. 8+1 prot for the healing monk will not take away from his heals, and allows you to bring Guardian, Prot Spirit, etc. Plus, if you have to, the prot can always bring ZB (prots have great elite options though, such as LS, PnH, RC, Boon Sig, Empathic Removal, etc.) so they both can still have some in both worlds. To me, though, 14 prot is pretty hard to give up, and two hybrids just seem a bit redundant anyway. And a good example of this is a traditional GvG backline; it’s usually a WoH and a prot, but both can function decently without each other (even though they can’t really be considered hybrids in my eyes).

Don't really understand this thread.

The OP basically defends what any "hybrid" monks proponent will say, but then the thread name and the way he formats his post will make someone that will do "diagonal reading" believe he defends a full prot monk (with no healing) and a full healing monk (with no prots).

The single point seems "I like 14 protection prayers".

JoeKnowMo · May 20, 2009, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

This is going to end in a semantics war.

Hybrid is someone that can both cast protection skills while healing (and don't read heal as healing prayers and protection as protection prayers). This is, I believe, the most common conception of hybrid.

This is my understanding of hybrid as well. Some red bar uppers, some prot, and (maybe) some utility.

Quote:

Don't really understand this thread.

The OP basically defends what any "hybrid" monks proponent will say, but then the thread name and the way he formats his post will make someone that will do "diagonal reading" believe he defends a full prot monk (with no healing) and a full healing monk (with no prots).

OP has redefined full prot and full heal.